So is the government once again changing horses in mid stream and if it is, what does that terminal prognosis mean for the vaunted Carnival Cruise Terminal Project, hatched with so much hope for southside re-development and the promise of a US$50 million investment in March of 2004? Well, one man who's got his pulse on that project is Luke Espat. He is, or maybe was, Carnival's partner in the joint venture dubbed the Belize Cruise Terminal Limited. Today he flatly rejected Minister Smith's facile and grim conclusions, saying the cruise terminal is rolling and will be ready. Jules Vasquez put the tough questions to him.
Luke Espat,
"It is ongoing, is on schedule. Those are the facts there. To answer the question you posed, like anything else, any joint venture partners from time to time have disagreements for whatever reason and as such yes, there are disagreements at this point in time but they are not irreconcilable, far from it."
Jules Vasquez,
When Giora Israel in July of 2005, July 27th, he said work would begin in August and the project would be ready for summer of 2007. It will not be ready.
Luke Espat,
"It will be ready for December 2007 and there are various reasons for the delay. The cruise terminal is going ahead as planned. The Belizean people will get their cruise terminal on the south side as committed by the strategic development program presented to the Belize government when the Port was privatized. It is no secret."
Jules Vasquez,
Will the Carnival group be a partner in this?
Luke Espat,
"I am sure they will participate."
Jules Vasquez,
There is a difference between participation and partnership. Giora Israel, the vice-president...
Luke Espat,
"We are partners, right now we are partners."
Jules Vasquez,
And you're saying that Giora Israel and the Carnival Group remains committed, involved, invested in this project?
Luke Espat,
"I am sure that the Carnival group is a partner at this time with this project."
Jules Vasquez,
Sir but I have been reliably informed and I don't have it in black and white but I have been told by highly placed sources that in fact the Carnival group recently indicated that they will not sign on for your project.
Luke Espat,
"Well I think that is a matter where you should ask Carnival. I don't think you should come to me with that, that's gossip..."
Jules Vasquez,
But they're your partner.
Luke Espat,
"I have answered you. I am telling you as I have answered and that is why I will not get into a debate with you on this issue. I have been clear, like any other business it is an issue between partners, it is not irreconcilable. The project is going ahead and the issue is that government is sending wrong signals out there to others that port licenses will be given to other people, for example Stake Bank which the Port of Belize takes as a breach of their agreement with the government. That is the issue at hand."
Jules Vasquez,
Will Stake Bank, in your opinion, be built?
Luke Espat,
"That is not my question if Stake Bank will be built. We will take every step necessary to ensure that the Port of Belize's rights are respected under the privatization agreement. Item seven of the business plan presented to the government of Belize before the Port was sold is clear."
Jules Vasquez,
'Address the forever growing tourism industry with a substantial terminal.'
Luke Espat,
"Clear. There is no debate about that. We have identified ourselves..."
Jules Vasquez,
The Minister of Tourism is saying that, this is not an observer on the street, this is the Minister saying that that agreement that you had to build a cruise terminal is in trouble. The differences he says are irreconcilable - Carnival is holding out. It is your word against the Minister's word.
Luke Espat,
"Well I am not putting my word against his, I am telling you as the partner where we are. I do not know if the Minister of Tourism is a partner on this arrangement."
Jules Vasquez,
He is the Minister of Tourism.
Luke Espat,
"I cannot comment to you anymore regarding that matter. I think I have dealt with it."
Jules Vasquez,
So then if you are right, he is wrong?
Luke Espat,
"You must ask him."
Jules Vasquez,
But he should know better. If you are saying that he is misinformed, how can be this close to...
Luke Espat,
"I deal in the real world Jules Vasquez where we have real accountability, it is not other people's accountability. We are building a cruise terminal, the Port of Belize continues to do its obligations under the agreements, our partners are there and we continue to do what we have to do."
Jules Vasquez,
Is the cruise terminal presently being built with money from the Carnival Corporation?
Luke Espat,
"I cannot go down that direction, absolutely not. That is for the company's business, that is not for public debate which money I am using."
Jules Vasquez,
If they are your partners, it would be automatic, axiomatic to...
Luke Espat,
"Absolutely not, that is not a debate question, sorry."
Jules Vasquez,
Is it being built with money from a financier such as Michael Ashcroft?
Luke Espat,
"We are not going down that avenue. You will not bring me into local gossip and change the issue and direction of the Port of Belize. I will not allow you to do that. I will not allow no torpedo to in anyway confuse the Belizean public and turn this into gossip. I won't go there."
Jules Vasquez,
But the project is supposed to be US$50 million. Respectfully Luke, you don't have US$50 million.
Luke Espat,
"Yes so you borrow. I don't have to tell you who I borrow it from. Do I?"
Jules Vasquez,
But Mr. Espat you were unable to access $50 million in credit.
Luke Espat,
"Well you said that when I wanted to buy the Port and I bought it."
Jules Vasquez,
You had to renegotiate the repayments.
Luke Espat,
"Perfect, that's real. That's real with every section of the world, we won't go there."
Jules Vasquez,
I am saying the involvement of Carnival, explicit stated involvement of Carnival is important if we are to believe that a US$50 million project is able to get off the ground. Luke Espat's name is not good for US$50 million.
Luke Espat,
"That is not the debate here. The debate here is that you must get, instead of debating that to Luke Espat, is that you should go down to the Port and see a cruise terminal being built. That is the issue and that is what you should inform the Belizean people about. The Belizean people are not interested about you asking me where I get the money, the Belizean people are interested with jobs. The Belizean people are interested in having a cruise terminal, not what Jules Vasquez thinks about gossip out there and sensational news. They are interested in that, we are delivering on that. The Port of Belize is keeping its commitments in delivering a cruise terminal, punto finale. That is what you should tell the Belizean people."
Jules Vasquez,
But it is not just me, it is the Minister of Tourism.
Luke Espat,
"What you should do is be responsible and monitor the advancement and the progress of the cruise terminal as it proceeds. That is being responsible, not gossip, and then you go to the Minister and then you ask the questions relating to what you want to be sensational. I am no politician, I am a businessman."
Jules Vasquez,
But you are a man in politics.
Luke Espat,
"No absolutely not, I support what I believe in."
Jules Vasquez,
Sir but it is not I who am generating new gossip, it is the Minister of Tourism, this man is the pre-eminent political authority, this man sits in the Cabinet, this is in the party organ.
Luke Espat,
"Well that's good, that's his rights. That's his rights and I think you should go and interview him."
Jules Vasquez,
But he said his position, he can't say it more clearly than this.
Luke Espat,
"Then you go back to him and ask him to put it on the camera and let him give you, he is a very good bright Minister."
Jules Vasquez,
In here he says that the government may, saying in his mind that the contract with the Carnival group has in his mind gone irretrievable asunder, he says that government may choose to damn the torpedoes and say that, Luke Espat, bring litigation if you will, we are going to license another sovereign port 6 miles from you.'
Luke Espat,
"They did illegally in Big Creek, let's see them do it here now. Let's go ahead here, then they will see. That I can promise you, now that I can answer you. Let them breach this part of the agreement and they will see where it will end."
Jules Vasquez,
Do you feel betrayed by the government of Belize who signed a contract with you and are now at least publicly entertaining another option which would completely undermine the project you are undertaking?
Luke Espat,
"I would expect the government to behave honorably and send to the world no mixed signals, that the Port of Belize is providing berthing for cruise terminals and they will honor their agreements and commitments."
Jules Vasquez,
You would expect them to do that but I am saying they are not doing that, they are entertaining a new partner.
Luke Espat,
"It doesn't bother me."
Jules Vasquez,
These are people you have a contract with.
Luke Espat,
"I have a commitment and I know they will keep their commitments. It is in their interests to keep their commitments, they are the government."
Jules Vasquez,
And if they don't you will force them to?
Luke Espat,
"No, if they don't we will take the recourses necessary to ensure that those agreements are kept. We are governed by laws."
Jules Vasquez,
Are we, are we really because so many exclusive contracts have been reneged upon, Mr. Ashcroft commented on it in an article in this newspaper, that the government has to stop reneging on contracts.
Luke Espat,
"I think that is a serious thing, of course because we will send wrong signals to the international community, that is true - a government must be responsible. A government must be responsible in not sending mixed signals, exactly like this one, to the international community to let other cruise lines feel that they can pick or choose where they do something in Belize, that's is true. What you are saying is true and that's wrong and that's because indecisiveness, disclarity, and the position of government, that is what you should deal with it. I agree with you fully, fully, fully."
Jules Vasquez,
But from the government's perspective, this is what the Minister is saying, something has to happen because we need a terminal and you, your partnership has dropped through, you can't build it. This is what their saying, not me, this is what they're saying and something has to be done and the other project has the stated explicit support from Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines.
Luke Espat,
"Have you been out there to see if Belize Cruise or are you blind? Maybe you're blind or you think that we fictioustly created photographs to put in a release."
Jules Vasquez,
I see an artist's rendering.
Luke Espat,
"Well then why don't you take it upon yourself and go out to the Port of Belize and take some real television shot and show the Belizean public what is being built."
Jules Vasquez,
But it is not me you have to convince, it is the government of Belize.
Luke Espat,
"I don't have to convince the government of Belize."
Jules Vasquez,
The Minister has said that the reason they may choose to pursue an option in Stake Bank is because they have a serious investor behind them and you have lost, you have irreconcilably lost your investor, that is what the government thinks.
Luke Espat,
"That's good, that's their position, that is their position."
Jules Vasquez,
They run the country.
Luke Espat,
"Fair enough."
Jules Vasquez,
The Minister says that they have to have last ditch meetings, he didn't use those words, have meetings with the Carnival group to try and salvage...
Luke Espat,
"As I said I won't comment on the Minister's ideas or the Minister's thoughts or the Minister's interest. As I said to you there is a government and I address it and I don't address no Minister. The government."
Jules Vasquez,
But he living an illusion then Luke?
Luke Espat,
"I don't know if the entire government is, I have told you where we are."
Jules Vasquez,
But this is your government, you signed a huge contract with them, you were one of the principals so it affects you if the government is having illusions as you claim they are.
Luke Espat,
"No I didn't, you said the word. Please, don't put words in my mouth, you don't do that."
Jules Vasquez,
If you say...
Luke Espat,
"I didn't say anything, I told you my position."
Jules Vasquez,
Which is diametrically opposed to the position of the Minister. So then we have to conclude that if you are not living under an illusion then the Minister is.
Luke Espat,
"That is entirely up to you."
Jules Vasquez,
Does it not concern you at least that the people you sign this contract with are now saying that it is irreconcilable, your differences with Carnival, that Carnival is holding out and that the best hope is to salvage the project?
Luke Espat,
"I couldn't give one iota of whatever is said as long as we keep our targets, as long as the Port of Belize continues to survive, and we continue to employ people, and we deliver on what we are supposed to do."
And while Espat wouldn't let on, 7NEWS is reliably informed that he continues to enjoy the backing of Michael Ashcroft. That's backative with 9 zeroes, three commas and a slew of attorneys who love to litigate and, as Amith avers to in his article, it would be, "costly and debilitating" to tangle with Ashcroft, a tangle that would be inevitable if government licenses stake bank as a sovereign port. The decision of whether to proceed with Stake Bank or rest with the Belize Cruise Terminal now seems to depend on what reaction if any the Carnival Corporation has to Smith's revelation, and Espat's energetic counter claims.
